Who Pays, And What Does It Mean?
A reader named Grace goes straight for the wallet on this one. What does a man’s paying habits have to do with his feelings for you? Read on to find out!
Grace writes:
Hi Jeff!
So what about money? What kind of money/pay behavior a guy displays indicates that he is sincere?
I mean it is just hard to believe that a guy is interested in dating you if he does not even think you are worth a dinner or movie. What about a guy who expects to break even, like if he pays for one thing he thinks you should pay for the next, should that be considered normal or insincere?
What do you think about this whole paying thing in general?
Thanks,
Grace
Dear Grace,
This is an issue in flux, I’d say. Couple of decades ago? Simple answers to all your questions. The guy paid, or he was a bum. Then for a little while there, some women claimed that they found a man paying all the time almost condescending. Then some of them wised up and said, “Sure, equality, right. But that’s no reason to pay for DINNER.”
And now? I think the standard isn’t so clear anymore, but there are still some expectations.
I mean, right there in your question is the idea that the connection is about what HE feels — as in, if he doesn’t pay for dinner or a movie, how could he be serious about dating? Flip that one backwards. Does it then follow that a woman must be interested in dating a man because she ACCEPTS his paying for dinner or a movie?
IT’S NOT THE MONEY HE SPENDS
Well, I’ll tell you this, you’re not going to get ANY info by what a guy actually does pay for. It’s not enough information. I mean, if a guy pays for dinner, it could mean:
- He’s crazy about her and wants to be a gentleman.
- He doesn’t give a crap about her, but still wants to be a gentleman.
- He’s a total douche and he wants to impress her with money.
- He’s got a corporate card and wants to use it for all it’s worth, thereby impressing her with his company’s money.
- He is looking for a tax writeoff.
- He has a punchcard at that Subway, and if he buys both your subs he gets two clicks.
See what I mean? However…
WHAT ABOUT THE MONEY HE DOESN’T SPEND?
Here’s where the behavior might get a little more readable.
You ask if the I-pay-now-you-get-the-next-one guy is being insincere. Well…sounds to me like he’s being VERY sincere. Probably too sincere for his own good. He might as well be wearing a T-shirt that says, “Either I am supremely cheap, 100% clueless about women, or I feel so little for you that I want to make sure that our finances don’t get murky even on the first date.” Good luck getting anywhere near the business end of a breast, fella.
And if he just flat doesn’t pay? I think this one’s got to be either:
- He’s very cheap
- He’s very stupid
- He wants to sleep with you for as little money as possible (possibly due to any of the above reasons)
- He has a punchcard at that Subway, and the manager told him that if he completely fills the card, he’s banned for life, and he really likes that Subway.
Any man with half a brain has to know that if you don’t offer to pay for a date sometimes, you look like a jerk.
EQUALITY? NOT REALLY, BUT WHO CARES?
Is it fair that men are expected to pay for dates? I don’t know. Probably not in the strictest sense. Kind of feels like it belongs to the same time period as dowries and carriage rides. Or at least soda shops and bobby sox. But whatever — it’s there and it’s hard to feel too badly about it. Call it the, “Women STILL don’t get equal pay, so suck it up, dude,” Tax. Whatever it is. It’s there.
MONEY’S FUNNY
People get very strange about money. I know there are plenty of men who will do ANYthing to avoid going somewhere that they’ll be expected to shell out more than a couple of bucks. And I know there are plenty of women who basically live to find ways to eat, drink, and have fun, all on a charitable donation from the “Guys I Have No Intention of Sleeping With” Foundation. (An organization to which I have belonged all my life. Nice bunch of guys, really.)
Personally, I think this cuts both ways. Yes, I think that a man who doesn’t pay at least most of the time likely doesn’t value her very much. And conversely, I think that a woman who expects to be paid FOR at all times maybe doesn’t value HIM very much.
What do you think, ladies? What does it say if the guy don’t pay?
Posted: January 24th, 2008 under Reader Requests.
Comments
Comment from Susan
Time January 24, 2008 at 9:56 am
I’m with Jeff on this one. I think it depends on the man and the situation. When I met my ex he was a part-time student and, while he took me out as much as he could, and DID pay for things early on, I paid for a lot of things after a while and for the most part was okay with it. (Ah, young love.) But that’s just one type of situation.
If both people are in the dating mode, and the man is presumably employed, I like it if he pays for our first meal/time out together. I guess I look at it as a goodwill gesture! After that, though, it’s great if he wants and can pay for our other times out, but i’m open to taking turns or finding ways to get together that have little to do with expensive dinners or the like.
I’d also say that if let’s say you met this man through an Internet dating site, or it’s clear you both have been out on a lot of dates recently, I would think a lot of men get a little tired (and maybe broke) having to dish it out all the time. I’m not saying that’s a good reason NOT to pay for you the first time out or 2 or 3, but it might explain some men’s reluctance to whip out the wallet — or to ask if it’s okay to split lunch. Again, not my preference to start, but it’s happened to me on dates. I agree, make a mental note about it to evaluate with all the other facts about him, and move on. Admittedly, I don’t hold out hope that he’s going to wine and dine me to win my heart.
Long way of saying, I agree with Jeff that it cuts both ways, you can’t tell too much from it (at least initially) and it depends on the person/couple.
Comment from mmagnolia
Time January 24, 2008 at 1:36 pm
Apology as Footnote to my 01/23rd “post-coital” comment is: Real or Imagined feelings of loss are woeful. My seemingly incongruous tickles flowed from my personal smiles about my own man’s(re)lations! Bottomline: We do best when we recognize and rise to our mutual occasions. Cheers2All!
Comment from Jeff Mac
Time January 24, 2008 at 1:36 pm
mar: I’ve seen the coinflip situation you’re talking about. I know some of my female friends who almost don’t LET a guy pay if they don’t like him. As if to say, “Look, buddy, you’re NOT my man, ok?” So interesting.
Susan: I agree — for whatever reason, it just seems like a nice thing for a guy to do. Pay for the first few dates. At the very least, it just looks better.
But I’d also agree with the idea that if the woman is the one who asked, it wouldn’t be unreasonable for her to offer to pay. I think there’s some weird gender-role awkwardness around this issue that could probably stand to be mercy-killed.
mmagnolia: No worries at all — I’m pretty sure everyone caught your drift. Thanks so much for stopping by!
Comment from Shelby
Time January 24, 2008 at 3:18 pm
I’ve never known a man NOT to pay for a date or try to argue with me if I tried to. As a matter of fact, I’ve experienced men literally fighting with me, should I try for the check. My player friend/boss Alex (whom I’ve mentioned before) once said this: “If I pay for dates, it shows them I care.” He went on to explain that he doesn’t always pay when he has other things going on. For example, he has other girlfriends he is interested in spending his money on. Personally, I don’t think it matters who pays so long as everyone is having a nice time.
Comment from Grace
Time January 24, 2008 at 4:11 pm
ummmm I just realized one thing and that is I did not do you justice in complimenting you when I asked my questions (how rude ^-^)
so Jeff you deserve Kudos Kudos Kudos for your honesty and straightforwardness =D
Comment from Susan
Time January 24, 2008 at 5:04 pm
Jeff, agreed that if I’m suggesting something (or dragging him into something he probably woudn’t suggest otherwise) I’d at least offer to pay.
Which rminds me about that monster truck rally coming up…
Shelby, I find your Alex friend’s comment interesting. Money conflict/division between multiple girlfriends! That must get tricky.
Grace, now you’ve done it! His head will swell with all those kudos! 
Comment from Susan
Time January 24, 2008 at 5:06 pm
Hey, Mars. I just read the last part of what you wrote more carefully. I agree with you completely. On a date where I just know it’s going nowhere fast I practically beg to split the bill, leave the tip — something. These are usually very nice guys, not just ones I want to date, and I suppose it alleviates my guilt a bit.
Comment from Sassy
Time January 24, 2008 at 5:53 pm
Well, I might get some flack for this, but I think at the beginning, it’s the man’s responsibility. He is the pursuer, he is the one doing the asking. Then he pays. After 4 or 5 days, then the lady can offer to cook dinner, make a picnic, etc. And if the man doesn’t make a ton of money, there are still great ways to date. Take a walk and buy ice cream. Go to the free museum nights. etc. It’s all about effort to me.
Comment from hunter
Time January 24, 2008 at 7:17 pm
to sassy,
I agree with you, some therapists recommend, going out to on a date, once,,,,, every two weeks,,,,,, for those men that don’t make much money…..
Comment from Selena
Time January 24, 2008 at 7:43 pm
With one exception, every man I’ve ever dated has always paid for the dates. This may be a generational thing as I am now in my mid 40’s and the majority of men I’ve dated were around my age or older and also grew up with the expectation that men were the ones who paid for dates–it was simply expected. It seems to me it’s mainly younger men (Under 35-40?) who make such as issue of it these days. And to me they come off as cheap and whiney. I interpret that as not really caring about the woman and getting to know her, just hoping to get her into bed with the least amount of effort possible.
Most of the men I’ve dated throughout the years were of modest means though, so we found things to do together that weren’t always expensive like Sassy suggested. I like going out to dinner, but I also like staying home renting a movie and splitting a pizza and a 6 pack. If you like each other the goal is spending time together, not necessarily how much money is spent.
I don’t blame men for getting put off by women who are always suggesting expensive outings with the expectation the man involved should pay for it and gladly. Ugh. If I really wanted to go somewhere, do something, that the guy I was dating wouldn’t suggest himself, I’d be more than willing to pay for both of us.
And I think you can tell alot about people in how they see money issues when first dating–what kind of partner they would be–cheap or extravagant. The movie “The Joy Luck Club” has an interesting example of this.
Comment from LA Lady
Time January 24, 2008 at 8:55 pm
This is a touchy subject. Some of my male friends feel like they are just a free dinner, and get upset when the women they “treated” didn’t even thank them for the dinner. The guys also told me they appreciate it when a woman offers to pay her share, but they would never accept her money.
On the other hand, the last guy I went out with, left the check sitting on the table for 20 minutes, and didn’t refuse when I offered to pay my share. It was awkward and uncomfortable. I paid my half and made a mental note. When other issues arose in our phone discussions over the next few days, I realized we weren’t a good fit and broke off the relationship. Was it over paying for dinner, no, not really, but it kind of left a bad taste in my mouth.
Comment from brahnamin
Time January 24, 2008 at 9:06 pm
good post.
my personal glitch is i’m old fashioned so i always paid. then i got married and even though we pretty much keep all our money common, i’m still the one to pull out the card and figure the tip because my wife doesn’t like to bother with bringing her purse into the restaurant or doing the math (and plus she likes to be seen in public with a man who is picking up the tab)
the law i’ve laid out to all my kids is *if you ask somebody out (i have two girls and one boy, btw) then it’s up to you to pay*.
by the same token, i’ve told my son that the smart money pays for the date even if she asked him out; and i’ve told my daughters to always bring enough money to cover the date even if you aren’t expecting to pay.
Comment from Selena
Time January 24, 2008 at 9:41 pm
Everyone I’ve dated I met previously, became a little aquainted with before they asked me out. I haven’t tried internet dating so I wonder if the ‘rules’ are different in that situation. Since the first date is essentially a blind date, a “go see” if you will, is the expectation each person pays their own way? Does going halfsies on coffee/drinks/lunch set a precendent for subsequent dates?
What happens if one person suggests a date that is a bit pricey? I might accompany someone to the theater or a concert if they were buying my ticket, but if they expected me to cough up the 100+$ for my own to go with them, I would rather decline. How is this handled? I’m not a golddigger, but neither do I want to lay out alot of cash on something I wouldn’t choose to do on my own.
What is the current etiquette regarding dates with people unknown to you? Are you supposed to offer to split the check automatically?
Comment from mmagnolia
Time January 24, 2008 at 11:38 pm
Howdy…Is this ‘made to be complicated’ because dollars often are “thought to represent” intangibles of self-worth/value? Shyness about sorting that issue seems out of place if the ultimate iintent of getting to know a someone involves being non-shy and “naked” on all levels. Inviting someone out is a gift AND accepting an invitation is a gift–so parties begin as equals in any event. Details about cost should be simple math, whether based on 50/50 or who can afford what-when-why. Well, that’s a short perspective from this Babe. Bon soir2All!
Comment from hunter
Time January 25, 2008 at 1:55 am
…little do most men know,.. that,… money is powerful. It has been known to move mountains, change minds, thoughts,..etc..I always pay for the date….
Comment from Jess
Time January 25, 2008 at 6:03 pm
I have a boyfriend and we’ve actually been seeing each other for a month or so, but he’s never offered to pay for me. He says that he cares about me alot and even says he loves me. He isn’t always looking for sex or anything, but i get bothered when he doesn’t even offer to pay for ANYTHING…not even to rent a video game for 3 dollars. Just to mention im unemployed and he’s employed. I think it’s because he likes to keep every penny more less, but it bothers me. I wouldn’t expect him to pay for everything; just at least one treat. I almost ask myself if i’m worth 3 dollars to him?
Comment from LA Lady
Time January 25, 2008 at 9:35 pm
Jess – I think you are seeing the light! Apparently you aren’t worth $3 or the cost of a dinner to him. Dump him and move on to someone who will cherish you. You deserve much better after a month of dating than a guy that won’t spring for anything.
Once the cheap side of a person comes out it never goes away. There is a big difference between frugal dating and being down right stingy. Sounds like your guy is way over on the stingy meter.
Remember Jeff says look at a guys actions not his words. This guy’s actions speak volumes, even though he says he loves you.
Comment from marsha
Time February 1, 2008 at 10:41 pm
Them Who Asks Pay.
but I also tend to make first internet dates at an afternoon coffee shop or etc. Get to know someone before we start figuring out who’s buying the sex inducing martinis.
Mostly I like to pay my half. I don’t like the idea of a man thinking I owe them.
Comment from mar
Time January 24, 2008 at 8:25 am
Jeff
I think it does not say an awful lot about his motivations. Perhaps a guy who pays can be presumed to have more interest than a guy who does not, but… what kind of interest? It could be an interest in the other person, or an interest in having sex with her. Given that for men sex is such a strong drive, there is no reason to assume that his interest will be more than purely sexual. To put it in other words, it might be that for many guys, just to have sex “pays off.”
I don’t think we can take his paying behaviour that seriously and generate anything like a golden rule. There might be other factors affecting the guy’s decision to pay. For instance, It might make sense for a guy to pay if he is very well off, even if he is not that interested in you, because he simply has little to lose . Viceversa, for a guy who is worse off, to pay may mean a lot, and therefore he might only do if he is very interested in the other person.
Similarly, it might also make sense to pay for a guy who gets very little dates and is a bit desperate, because any date would be a rare opportunity, and any time he does not get that many. But that would not mean he is very much into the other person, just that he wants to make the best of it.
I really don’t think that we can read a lot into it. Myself, I think it’s good manners that if someone asks another out, then the one who asks should at least be prepared to pay the bill.
I think the most interesting side of this is to flip the coin: I can’t explain why this is, but I’m more likely to let a guy pay if I really like him, while if I insist to pay for my part of the bill that realy means: “I don’t like you and won’t go out with you anymore.” Perhaps because if I let someone pay whom I don’t like I then feel guilty. So, here’s a womanslation for you