More Male Fantasies, With a Twist…
Today, Donna writes in that her husband’s mind is wandering. Sounds like she pressed him until he told her exactly what the fantasies were, too. (Not literally, like, with a big stone or something. Though I think she probably wants to now.) Which…well, we’ll get to why that was probably not a great idea. She wants to know…how is fantasizing NOT cheating? Read on to find out:
My husband and I have been married for over 12 years. We have 5 beautiful children together ranging from 11 years to 8 months. When we were married I was a size 6. After 5 children I am still about 80 pounds over what I used to be. I have always been thin, until I had kids. Now “metabolic syndrome” they call it is making my body think it is in starvation mode and will not burn fat, just keeps storing it. My husband knows that my weight really bothers me…..But my brother and his wife go to the strip club. So we’ve been going for several years, becuz I don’t look like that anymore, why can’t he still look at it? How stupid am I to think that he really was only looking, and it didn’t go beyond that?
We had a discussion last Friday night and he was finally honest with me. I asked if he fantasized about any of the strippers…of course he lied, and lied…but finally said “yes” and the fantasies are in vivid detail and he described a few to me (I’m sure they were VERY watered down). THese fantasies were going on while I was always right next to him. But he says these fantasies are only when I take him to the strip clubs. Of course, more and more lately, he ALWAYS wants to go to the strip club.
I was devasted when he told me this. This man is my lover, my best friend and my life. i can’t imagine life with out him….but now I can’t ever imagine him touching me again. It is like he has ripped out my heart. Am I wrong for feeling this way? Do all men fantasize? Does he do this when we have been having sex….he denies this last part, but he has lied so much lately!
I can honestly say that I have not fantasied about sex with other men…it has never even crossed my mind because I am happy in the relationship I am in, I don’t need any one else. Does this mean he is not happy with our relationship? He says it’s not cheating, and he would never never cheat on me…but he’s ____ing other women in his head! HOw it that NOT cheating?
Dear Donna,
Well, before we get started, I have good news. This stuff is NOT related to your weight. It’s not about your body. It’s got nothing to do with him being unhappy with you, your body, or the relationship. The fact is, these fantasies did not just begin in the past few years. They began when he was 12 or so, and they have been going on roughly, oh, let’s say “all day long” from that moment until this one.
You ask if all men fantasize, and the answer is that yes, yes we do. As I mentioned in this post, fantasies don’t really mean to us what they seem to mean to most women I know. It’s not a voluntary thing for us to think about such things. It’s not always even a conscious thing that we’re paying attention to (think: cleaning the house with the TV on.) It’s a reactive thing, and no more controllable than the urge to, say, “breathe.”
WHY CAN’T MEN JUST NOT THINK ABOUT THAT?!
I took a little flak in the comments section of that last post from a guy who said that it was irresponsible to blame this on biology, and that men need to fight this tooth and nail to defeat it. And another commenter said that “men think they have a right to these thoughts because they’re MEN.” I respect their opinions, but I just can not agree.
Actually, that 2nd commenter was half-right. I think that EVERYONE has the right to ANY thoughts, whenever they have them, men or women. But that’s just me. I reject the idea that thoughts are dangerous in the same way that I reject the idea that if a normal kid plays video games, he will become a murderer. People used to say that about rap. And heavy metal before that. And the Beatles. Before that it was Elvis. And before that it was jazz. No, seriously.
I think it’s a big, big mistake to turn any thoughts into something to be “defeated.” Personally (and this is just my opinion — I can tell it’s mine because I’m the one typing it. That’s how I can always tell.) I believe that anytime you try to deny your own thoughts, you’re guaranteed to do only one thing: make yourself feel lousy when you fail at it.
Well, either that or get some major boomerang action by half-suppressing something and making it “forbidden.” (see: Gov. Spitzer, destroyer of prostitution rings…and high-paying customer. Or: Larry Craig, the guy who wants to ban gay marriage…and also the guy who solicits gay sex in a toilet. Or: The Rev. Ted Haggard who was very vocally anti-gay…but also bought meth from a male hooker/masseur. I could go on…)
In these cases, it wasn’t their failure to repress these thoughts that was the problem. It was their lack of control over their ACTIONS.
HOW IS THIS NOT CHEATING?
I’ll tell you exactly how — it’s involuntary. You say that this kind of fantasy never crosses your mind. My girlfriend says the same thing. And I am happy to believe her, even if it’s not true. And if she does think about other men, boy, I do NOT want to know. But let’s say it’s true, and women are able to just not think about other men. Well, then that’s what you need to understand — evidently he (along with every man I know) is not like that. Men don’t choose what to think about in this realm.
I personally believe that it’s not cheating because he’s not doing anything about it. Whatever his mind is doing up there, if he still chooses only you I see that as being faithful. Now, that’s just me. If you think of these thoughts as cheating, well, you’re definitely with a cheater. And so are all the other women on this planet. Possibly other planets as well.
SO MEN HAVE NO CONTROL OVER THIS??!
No, I would say that men absolutely have the ability to control several aspects of this. What can (and should) most men be able to control?
- WHAT HE DOES: Look, regardless of whatever nonsense is going on inside my warped little mind, I would never, ever cheat on my lady fair. Never. The two things are not related. I can’t choose all of my thoughts — they come and they go without asking for permission — but I can and do choose my actions. Your husband seems to say the same thing.
- WHAT HE SAYS: The other thing I wouldn’t do is to talk about or describe this stuff to her. Why do that? I know it would certainly hurt my feelings to know any details about fantasies that she might have. Given how little weight these things carry in my life, I would never want to burden her with knowing all of that nonsense. And she doesn’t ask. We both know that a.) it’s happening in my mind only, b.) it’s not something I’m nurturing in myself, and c.) I’m never going to act on it.
WHAT TO DO?Look, while I believe that it’s perfectly normal and natural for a man to have these thoughts, I’ll tell you this much — I also think that it is irresponsible and thoughtless for him to wave it in your face. (Personally, I’m not big on anybody waving anything in someone’s face. It’s just not nice.) He knows you’re insecure about your body, and he damn well should know that when you see him leering at women who are teeny-tiny and enhanced by science fiction and silicone, it makes you feel lousy about yourself. And while I don’t believe any thoughts he might have on the subject are a betrayal, those actions are.
He should be perfectly capable of understanding that these stripper fantasies hurt your feelings. He should be ready to break his back making sure you know that you are the only woman in his life. And before you say it, yes, I know, he should already know not to sit next to you at a strip club, since he should already know it’s going to hurt your feelings.
Well…we’re sometimes pretty dumb about that. I mean, we know that these fantasies don’t mean anything to US, but some of us forget that they might mean something big to YOU.
I’d say it’s time for The Talk. He’s got to understand (as I’m guessing that he’s learned of late) that these fantasies hurt your feelings. These strip club trips hurt your feelings. You are only too aware that your body doesn’t look like theirs and even the slightest hint that he’s looking at them because he’s dissatisfied with you (even if that’s not why he’s doing it) really hurts your feelings.
I’d say that he should be able to hear that, “Listen, I don’t know if this is news to you, but this stuff really, really hurts me. Look whatever’s going on in your mind, I need to know in no uncertain terms that I am the only woman for you.”
Good luck, Donna. And if he can’t listen to that — that you need to know that he’s yours, that he still chooses you and ONLY you, even after all these years? Well, these strip clubs and fantasies aren’t your biggest problem.
What do you think ladies? Are thoughts cheating? What’s to be done here?
Posted: March 28th, 2008 under Reader Requests.
Comments
Comment from Lisa
Time March 28, 2008 at 7:55 am
I could be wrong but I’ve been in this position. I used to do the same thing. I would go with my ex to strip clubs, quite honestly, it was a turn on for us both, he would get turned on and take it out on me, which of course, I loved.
BUT…. and that’s a big BUT….
In the end, I was only setting myself up for failure. I did not look like those girls, mind you I was small framed, but had nothing up top to speak of which bothered me personally. It weighed on my mind that I should have assets like they had and maybe he liked theirs better……and so on and so on and so on.
It started to become a problem for me as I became more insecure about my body image. Then it all went out the window. I was insecure and he did not understand why I no longer wanted to visit the strip clubs with him, he didn’t understand that it no longer turned me on.
But…..since the behavior was acceptable for such a long time, it was difficult for him to let it go. Hence, the I set myself up for failure. By accepting him gawking at other females, when I pulled back, it was too late.
Maybe I had a bad apple, but after 5 years of allowing the behavior, he didn’t want to stop after I voiced my hesitations.
So now, It’s not something I would ever do again. Probably wasn’t much help.
Comment from mar
Time March 28, 2008 at 8:01 am
Hi Donna
My take on this is that it’s probably true that men about fantasize about women all the time, and that it’s involuntary. I’m not a man, so I’ve got no experience of it, but, I have met men who are very clear about that (a friend of mine said one that he wanted to have sex with every woman he knew, and that that always the case for him – but he didn’t do it when he was in a relationship with someone). Regarding every other man, I of course don’t know, but my hunch is that men don’t go around telling this to women, because they think they will hurt us, and so it’s become a bit tabu (especially when religion is by the middle, with for instance, catholicism portraying it as sin).
Assuming that is true: assuming that all men do it and that it’s involuntary, which I think is likely (although I suppose there may be variations of degree), then… nothing that you can do about it… the only thing is to accept it.
Having said that, I think it’s awful that your husband has told you, it shows great insensitivity to your feelings. One thing is that for him is natural and does not mean cheating: that doesn’t make it OK for him to tell you.
I don’t know: for some people ignorance is a blessing, some other people think hiding things is in itself lying… what you make of it?
If it had been me, I would not have wanted my partner to tell me. But I would also not have gone with him to striptease clubs.
That’s part of their life, and they have to deal with it. Whether you want to share that part of his life is a decision you have to make for yourself.
Hope this is helpful.
Mar
Comment from Jim
Time March 28, 2008 at 9:44 am
Hi Donna,
It seems to me that Jeff and the other readers aren’t giving your husband enough credit for trying to protect your feelings. Like Jeff said, these thoughts are bound to pop into our heads from time to time and usually we’re very good at keeping them to ourselves. When you confronted your husband you mentioned that he lied… and then lied again… and then finally told you. I see the first two instances of lying as trying to protect your feelings. I mean, let’s look at the other ways this conversation could have gone after you asked him the first time.
a) if he came right out and said it without hesitation then whatever he actually said would have seemed like it was on the tip of his tongue and would have been translated in your mind into “Thank god she finally asked me, I’ve been dying to tell her about these fantasies with other women”
b) if he continued to lie about it (and I’m assuming you asked him another version of the question after every time he lied, eventually prompting him to tell the truth), but if he did continue to answer every version of the same question with a lie then I doubt you’d feel any better than you did before the conversation began. And he would feel even worse, because every further instance of the same question would just pound it into his head that you trusted him less and less. He might bottle up completely and never feel comfortable telling you how he feels, because this conversation would have seemed accusatory.
c) perhaps the best course of action would have been to give a partial truth with less detail, something like “honey, I do have thoughts about those other girls sometimes but I don’t want to describe them to you because I think they’d upset you. I love only you and would never act on those thoughts.” Again, this seems like the best way for this conversation to go, but it still could pose problems of its own. I know a few of my ex girlfriends would have taken that as meaning “sorry honey, but the thoughts I have are just so damn kinky and great that I don’t want to share them with you….” and they’d totally ignore the part where I said I cared only for them and I’d never act on my thoughts. A lot of times the unknown is even more intimidating. You’d have been left wondering, Well what *are* those thoughts? Is it something wild that we’ve never done together?
So I think the way it went down was probably the way it should have. He tried to protect your feelings a number of times with lies, eventually told you the truth and even gave a watered down (and probably not too intimidating) version of his thoughts to you. Maybe it didn’t all end perfectly, but I think you have a guy that cares about you. Jeff is right in that you should have a talk with him about the strip clubs and how it makes you feel. An honest talk that doesn’t put him on the spot or seem accusatory.
Comment from MtnGal
Time March 28, 2008 at 11:59 am
Honestly, … this is just amazing – when will women learn to have enough self-esteem to just say “NO’ – “No, you can’t do that” and “No I won’t put up with it.”
Comment from Just Me
Time March 28, 2008 at 12:12 pm
Personally, I think it’s time to cut back on visits to the strip club. I think the more someone get accustomed to certain thoughts and actions — desensitization? — the easier it is to “go there” and take a step over the line between fantasy and reality. Regular visits to see the strippers is not going to reduce the number or intensity of his fantasies about strippers. The visits are reinforcing those thoughts.
I’m just sayin’ is all.
And if you can dig deep and find ways to feel better about yourself, then you’ll be able to have that confidence in yourself and maybe feel more comfortable in finding mutual fantasies to play with. It’s pretty much impossible to do if you don’t feel good about yourself though.
Comment from AnneZ
Time March 28, 2008 at 12:44 pm
Jeff, you have done an excellent job of describing what goes on inside those man brains. I appreciate the lessons very much. No argument about freedom of thought.
I also very much appreciate the comments of your fellow male-human, Jim.
But I must pipe up to say there is a huge double standard in those male brains vis a vis strip clubs. I would like to pick up on something Jim said, which seems very consistent with many of Jeff’s writings.
Jim emphasized the need for women to avoid being “accusatory.” We’ve often heard Jeff explain that any time a woman admires some object or asks about feelings the man immediately feels he’s being asked to buy or say something he can’t afford and therefore he feels shrunken, judged and inadequate.
And yet, these same men can’t understand how a woman might feel instaneously judged, rejected and inadequate if her man fantasizes about other women and pays MONEY to see them? Women who have NOT had five babies and who make a full time career of beautifying themselves?
Somehow she’s supposed to magically understand these professional beauties “have nothing to do with her”?
To me, there seems a much more direct correlation between a man desiring other women’s bodies and his gal’s feeling attacked than a woman making an offhand remark about a beautiful house she drove past and her guy’s feeling attacked. Like, a house is not a man but a woman is, in fact, another woman.
I don’t expect to change man-kind with my comments but it would be very interesting to here more on this dialogue. Speak up, fellas!
I do get sick of hearing all these paid silicone sisters have “nothing to do” with the real life wife/GF, yet every single, tiny glance, remark or question we commit is a direct assault on all manhood everywhere.
As to the original letter, I do believe in privacy in relationships. There are things I don’t want to know and things I don’t want to be asked. Let it be. Neither would I ever go to a strip club as entertainment. Never. The unhappy mess she is in now is a good reminder to me of why not.
Comment from mar
Time March 28, 2008 at 1:10 pm
Very good comments above by MtnGal, JustMe, AnneZ, in my opinion.
I mean: if it’s OK to go to the strip club and to watch women (*watching them*) doing striptease, why is it not OK to fantasize with them? Fantasize is not that different from watching real women: for it involves *watching women in your mind* (and playing with them in your mind).
I think if Donna has done that with her husband… then, well, that’s an implicit approval that watching other women (whether for real or in your mind) is OK with her. And if it is not OK with her, then she shouldn’t have gone to the strip club with him?
Sorry Donna, if this sounds unsympathetic. I do sympathise with your feelings, for I understand that you are hurt, but I do think you’ve got something to do with having ended up in this situation. In a way, I think you have encouraged it.
Myself, I’m very uncomfortable with the idea that my partner fantasizes with other women. But the way I have gone about this in the past is no talking about it and no asking questions. In the end, I do not actually believe that one ought to share everything in a relationship.
M
Comment from Jim
Time March 28, 2008 at 1:52 pm
AnneZ – I wasn’t speaking in general terms about women needing to make sure they weren’t accusatory, I was being specific to this case. I was assuming that given the lie, lie, truth format of their discussion that the question was asked multiple times. I think that many instances of the same question implies that she had already made up her mind what the answer SHOULD be and that she was just waiting for him to say it. At that point he’s probably feeling prejudged, as if she’s already decided without giving him a chance to explain, and the discussion becomes between the accused and the accuser. This is really a no win situation for the both of them and doesn’t usually lead to an honest and open discussion, which I think this situation calls for.
Comment from AnneZ
Time March 28, 2008 at 3:19 pm
Thanks, Jim. I understood you. I even agree with you. He was trying, but he was in a sinking ship. I agree that it is completely no win for both of them and a sorry chapter that will probably make for hurt feelings in their house for a long time.
I understood all that and agree. But I did want to pull out the discussion from the specific to the general. Because, to me, the guy’s first mistake was going to the strip club in the first place. Because this day was inevitable. And I’m saying it’s hard to understand how he didn’t see that fatal iceberg up ahead before he left shore.
If we (women) are supposed to know all these subtle things that are going to make a man feel judged, how come so many men fail to notice this incredibly obvious one that makes women feel judged? And then they pull out the “it doesn’t have anything to do with you” mantra?
I do appreciate your thoughts and insight. Thanks.
Comment from hunter
Time March 28, 2008 at 9:30 pm
to mar,
I liked the sentence you said, “In the end, I do not believe, that one ought to share everything in a relationship.” Now is this, like the saying, “hold your cards close to your chest?” or , “try not to bare your soul?” hhhmmhh…
Comment from mar
Time March 29, 2008 at 8:48 am
hunter
No, I just think that this kind of thing is always likely to hurt the other, and I see no point in sharing it.
Comment from mmagnolia
Time March 29, 2008 at 1:26 pm
Some wonderful wisdom! My footnotes: [1] Ms. & Mr. Donna should ‘Talk’ first about the Why of strip-trips if looking back, OR talk first about Why continue same if looking forward (erotica, e.g., strip4each, salacious storytelling/reading) can be had at ‘home’ or ‘Inn’l]; [2] ‘Withholding’ works as fairplay only if both cuddlers agree; [3] It’s absolutely! true that asking same question more than once is presuming a guilt; [4] Questions are asked with expectation of honesty so unsolicited lying to “protect feeling” presumes waaay2much; [5] There’s a difference between hearing something (sort of as ‘witness’) and knowing in heart (sort of as ‘hearsay’); [6 is really "1"] In the dearest relationship, tacit agreement on any issue is healthy only if both parties expressly agree that tacit agreement promotes a ‘good-of-one’ that is a ‘best-for-two’, which thereby sweetens!
Comment from hunter
Time March 29, 2008 at 8:42 pm
to Mar,
Not telling your partner things that will hurt, can be confusing, to men, when trying to be honest at the same time.
Comment from mar
Time March 30, 2008 at 8:28 am
hunter
Well, I might not have expressed myself well. What I meant is that I would not talk about it in a relationship. I wouldn’t ask my parner whether he has fantasies that do not include me. I would not want him to ask me whether I have fantasies that do not include him. No talking about it means no demand to be honest, no need to lie or to hide things.
M
Comment from hunter
Time March 31, 2008 at 12:46 am
to mar,
ooohhh, gotcha, thanks for ‘splaining..
Comment from Tammy
Time September 15, 2008 at 6:36 pm
Im thinking its really funny how men are wired that way for procreation becaue the more i learn about the men the more i dont like them… and its nothing really personal against them.. I just dont like how they are wired… And I’ve always loved guys… what a shame.. I just cant really respect them anymore..
Comment from Ingrid
Time March 28, 2008 at 7:02 am
Jeff you’ve certainly hit the nail on the head (as always). Thoughts are not actions. And for men thinking about other women is just something they can’t control and part of the male psyche.
Donna is feeling insecure about her body image and her husband should be sensitive to how this whole strip club thing is hurting her feelings. This may require the talk. Not all women are offended by men’s fantasies – some actually enjoy them if they make for interesting pillowtalk. But we’re all different and he may not realize (because you go along with it) what this is doing to you.
However it’s perfectly natural for men to think about sex with other women but it doesn’t mean he’s actually going to do the deed. A healthy fantasy life can be a good thing. Donna you just need to make it clear that it makes you uncomfortable. But it’s definitely not cheating – those are two very different things.